[21:05:06] lilithsub:
for those who are new to the site....caps are not required in this room....while we realize they are habit for some...all are equal here...


[21:05:20] lilithsub:
hello Sassy and OrderLord


[21:05:45] SassyandOrderLord:
hi lilith - how are you?


[21:06:05] gentle:
greetings Sassy and OderLord... *s*


[21:06:08] liz:
So can anyone give meaning of not being a submissive


[21:06:12] lilithsub:
taking a break from homework...gentle always hosts such nice discussions


[21:06:19] GM_Wylde:
Ahhh,finally I can rest Me fatfingeritis then


[21:06:50] lilithsub:
(can't do private) didn't mean to be rude Sir but yes you may rest your fingers...smile


[21:06:53] GM_Wylde:
And a hello to all


[21:07:19] GM_Wylde:
smiles


[21:07:39] gentle:
*peeks around* Well everyone, I think CC will be here shortly... but if not ..... we will get started very soon...


[21:07:57] gentle:
thank you lilith ... what a very nice compliment !


[21:09:08] Calliegirl:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[21:09:15] wildorchid:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[21:09:38] fawradical:
sorry..got distracted..hello everyone that i haven't greeted so far


[21:09:44] lilithsub:
hello Calliegirl and wildorchid


[21:09:52] lilithsub:
Well lets get started


[21:09:57] lilithsub:
first i will post a few statements


[21:10:00] lilithsub:
about the site


[21:10:08] wildorchid:
evening lilith


[21:10:08] gentle:
hello Calliegirl and wildorchid and welcome !


[21:10:11] lilithsub:
if you do not post please hit talk or refresh top every five minutes


[21:10:18] lilithsub:
otherwise you will be auto logged out


[21:10:38] lilithsub:
if this happens..you will see so and so left (autologout) then just hit talk and you will come back


[21:10:56] wildorchid:
evening gentle


[21:10:57] Calliegirl:
Good evening all.


[21:11:00] lilithsub:
the directions for doing private are on the enterance screen


[21:11:16] lilithsub:
we ask that you hold questions til gentle has presented her presentation


[21:11:28] lilithsub:
when asking questions please announce you have one...and she will recongnize you


[21:11:33] GM_Wylde:
nods


[21:11:36] lilithsub:
thanks i will hand it over to gentle


[21:12:05] gentle:
thanks lilith and hello everyone !


[21:13:29] SassyandOrderLord:
<just sitting here>


[21:13:46] gentle:
I'll start off by saying that like many a DC in which I have been the presenter.... it all started with a conversation with CC .... and the next thing I knew ... a DC topic was born! Tonight's topic started off looking like "how NOT to be a submissive" ..... but when I was putting it together.... it ended up being more of how to BE a submissive ....


[21:14:41] gentle:
and personally, I always like to focus on the positive ..... *s* anyway.... as we go through .... I'll present a bit and then stop and ask for comments, questions etc .....


[21:15:12] gentle:
here we go !


[21:15:14] fawradical:
<just sitting here>


[21:15:18] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[21:15:46] gentle:
There are as many types of BDSM relationships as there are people in BDSM relationships. How do you know which type you want? Which type is right for you?


[21:15:58] lilithsub:
<just sitting here>


[21:16:08] gentle:
You may already know the answer to this question. You may be able to in two or three sentences explain to me exactly what kind of BDSM relationship you are seeking. But, if you are not quite clear, how do you figure it out?


[21:16:29] gentle:
Well … tonight is a discussion of that question…. “How do I know, if I don’t know”?


[21:16:49] GM_Wylde:
<just sitting here>


[21:16:50] gentle:
I’ll start off by saying …. You may well find out once you have your answer, that you realize you knew your answer all along. However, as they say … “hindsight is 20-20”. Until you reach your 20-20 hindsight, lets talk about getting clearer about what type of BDSM relationship will make you happy.


[21:17:08] gentle:
A good first place to start is by answering some basic questions. Below are some that come to mind for me. You probably have others as well.


[21:17:24] gentle:
Do you want a Master or a Mistress…? Or does it not matter? ~~~~ Are you interested in online or r/t? ~~~ Which aspects of BDSM interest you? The emotional? The mental? The sexual? The Spiritual?


[21:17:38] gentle:
Are you looking for a scening partner? ~~~ Are you looking for a committed partner? ~~~ Are you looking for one person to be both a mate and Master?


[21:17:53] gentle:
What are you seeking to experience? ~~~ Do you want to play out fantasies only? ~~~ Are you always in sub mode?


[21:18:13] gentle:
Are you comfortable and happy being submissive in the bedroom? In public? ~~~ Are you happy with just one partner? ~~~ Are you happy with multiple partners?


[21:18:38] CC:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[21:19:15] gentle:
*grins* welcome CC .... we are just getting started....


[21:19:38] CC:
*waves w/a blush* ... must a couple more min ...I was just gonna catch a couple of Z's


[21:20:31] GM_Wylde:
<just sitting here>


[21:20:38] CC:
Thank you gentle for not waiting on me


[21:20:45] gentle:
*chuckling* we are glad to have you here ... we were just getting the thought processes revved up ... with some questions ...


[21:20:51] lilithsub:
<just sitting here>


[21:21:04] fawradical:
<just sitting here>


[21:21:08] SassyandOrderLord:
<just sitting here>


[21:21:11] liz:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>


[21:21:31] gentle:
*pauses and takes a breath and smiles and looks around to see if there are questions or comments*


[21:21:50] Calliegirl:
<just sitting>


[21:22:02] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[21:22:19] GM_Wylde:
So far none


[21:22:25] GM_Wylde:
smiles


[21:22:31] liz:
<Enters the Dungeon.> <just sitting here>


[21:22:40] gentle:
Has anyone asked themselves these types of questions ... and did you find the answers helpful ?


[21:23:11] lilithsub:
yes


[21:23:23] lilithsub:
i found if i could not verbalize to someone else what i wanted i would not get it


[21:23:29] wildorchid:
I have in the past gentle as I was growing and discovering just how I fit into this lifestyle *S*


[21:23:33] fawradical:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[21:23:35] gentle:
how were the answers helpful lilith ?


[21:23:41] lilithsub:
so i asked myself these types of questions so i could not send mixed messages with my conversations....


[21:23:45] liz:
question


[21:24:14] CC:
it seems to me that these are very good questions to pose to ones self ... and could also be asked of a dominant even though tonight the focus is on that of submissives


[21:24:24] GM_Wylde:
IMHO,Tis what I always ask of any potential lil ones,these I relate to as basic wants and needs


[21:24:30] gentle:
very good points lilith .....


[21:24:39] gentle:
<just sitting here>


[21:24:49] gentle:
yes liz of course ....


[21:25:07] GM_Wylde:
nods to CC,I was just responding


[21:25:57] CC:
*nods to lilith* I find that sometimes "thinking" the questions is one thing .. actually saying them out loud has a more profound effect as to actually framing them and making them "real"


[21:26:20] liz:
I think everyone in there life look into themselves to find what t relationship they was looking for in there lifewha


[21:26:51] lilithsub:
that is good GM so many times i see Doms never ask these questions..just accept..take me i am yours


[21:27:38] GM_Wylde:
I come from very "old school ways",thank you


[21:28:22] gentle:
that's a great point liz.... all that I will talk about tonight... are really just ways to figure out ... what each of us is about .... which is an important part of knowing what will make us happy.


[21:28:24] liz:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[21:28:48] CC:
*grins at GM and the "old school ways" comment and glad the hairdresser can make grey appear blonde*


[21:29:20] gentle:
CC ~~ I also really like the "speaking the questions and answers out loud" ... that bring an entire other dimension to the exercise....


[21:29:40] GM_Wylde:
Laffs,Even us old Scots turn somewhat gray,smiles


[21:29:41] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[21:29:57] lilithsub:
<just sitting here>


[21:30:04] Calliegirl:
i'm new to the lifestyle. so i watch others' relationships and ask myself the questions you posed.


[21:30:57] SassyandOrderLord:
<just sitting here>


[21:31:10] Calliegirl:
i also ask myself if i would be comfortable in a relationship like the one i'm observing, i evaluate what i see and hear with my value system and what i want/need


[21:31:38] wildorchid:
I think there is potential as well in the beginning for the answers to the questions to change , as learning and growing takes place


[21:31:55] gentle:
There are so many questions we can ask ourselves... I've phrased most of my questions in terms of what DOES work for you... but if you aren't coming up with a lot of answers.... you can always also ask yourself ...what DOESN'T work with me.... a lot of times... this is what we focus on most ... what doesn't work... so these answers initially come easiest to us... once you have what doesn't work ... then you can just re-phrase the statement into what does work for you...


[21:32:05] Calliegirl:
i agree with you, wildorchid


[21:33:26] gentle:
wildorchid ... you raise a good point... as you learn and grow.... the questions you ask yourself ... may indeed change.... and ... *lil grin* the anwers may change too !


[21:33:36] lilithsub:
<just sitting here>


[21:34:01] CC:
nods to gentle ... sometimes it is "easier" to figure out what pushes our buttons in a bad way rather than to actually identify the positive things


[21:34:34] jmcd702001:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[21:34:57] wildorchid:
they did for me gentle it took me sometime to find out just what I was searching for and I think in the beginning I really wasn't looking for the same relationship as I am now


[21:36:05] gentle:
CC ... i was a bit flabbergasted with one of my teachers pointed out to me.. that most people tend to focus on the negative and so have those answers to the "negative" questions more readily available... and of course one simply turns them around to make the answers positive...


[21:36:26] gentle:
greetings jmcd702001 and welcome !


[21:36:38] CC:
curious ...wildorchid ... do you feel that in the beginning your expectations were different than they are now? Perhaps more "realisitic"?


[21:37:36] wildorchid:
they are more realistic now CC in the beginning I think I was seeing things with a little too much fantasy


[21:38:42] gentle:
and Calliegirl... you bring me to my next point .. with your great comment about "trying on for size" ....


[21:38:50] jmcd702001:
thank you for the welcome I'm tryiing to get myself oriented.


[21:38:53] Calliegirl:
<just sitting>


[21:39:43] lilithsub:
<just sitting here>


[21:39:54] gentle:
What if you don’t know all the answers to those questions? Or what if you just don't get a lot of information when you pose this questions to yourself ? That’s okay. There are other clues which can help you figure out what makes you happy. Another approach which has helped me be better define what makes me happy in a BDSM relationships… is by paying attention to my feelings.


[21:41:04] gentle:
I should add here … that I have not always had a “name” to associate a certain type of BDSM activity. And, I am not yet sure I still have all the correct names…. But I have identified a lot of the feelings now and what those feelings mean to me.


[21:41:28] gentle:
For example, it makes me very happy to be tucked into bed. And, I’m not talking sexually tucked in … though that also makes me happy. What I’m talking about is having someone fluff blankets over me and tuck them around me, brush the hair off my face and kiss my forehead and wish me sweet dreams. For me this is about safety, security, being taken care of - not being the one who has to figure everything out.


[21:42:42] gentle:
A second example of feelings, which finally jumped up and waved and signaled until I got my message…. Was how unhappy I became in a couple of online BDSM relationships when the Dom kept bringing new slaves home. I finally asked myself… what is bothering me so much about having new sisters? And, I found out a couple of very important things. First, I like to have some say-so as to who is part of my BDSM relationships. And, from that I realized I want my Master and I to be partners. Secondly, I realized the odds of finding this on-line are slim. So, I’m backing off from online role-play and focusing more on r/t relationships.


[21:43:53] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[21:44:26] CC:
makes a note that the depths of involvement r/t and/or on-line depends on the depths of the emotional buy in from either partner ... both have varying degrees of validity ... online with obvious differences


[21:44:39] SassyandOrderLord:
<just sitting here>


[21:44:41] GM_Wylde:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>


[21:45:09] GM_Wylde:
<Enters the Dungeon.> <just sitting here>


[21:45:11] Calliegirl:
<just sitting>


[21:46:04] CC:
psssssst GM ... one of the room drawbacks is that you do need to refresh or "talk" about every 5 min or "fall out" of the room


[21:46:28] gentle:
CC ... thank you for making that distinction ... i actually like online quite a bit .. and have enjoyed it tremendously.... I just haven't found online partners who are looking for the same depth of committment which I am ... *s*


[21:46:46] GM_Wylde:
Thanx,CC


[21:47:24] gentle:
but.. *lil grin* online vs. r/t is an entirely different DC !


[21:47:50] gentle:
*looks back at Calliegirl with a smile* Calliegirl your earlier comment seems to me could fall into both these areas... the asking questions ... such as does the activity I'm observing interest me ? .... and also.... your feelings while you are watching it would be good clues too .... were your happy ... intrigued etc...


[21:48:40] GM_Wylde:
A deep committment,loyality,honesty,trust is so rare of a true find,It definately makes a hard search


[21:49:18] GM_Wylde:
online that is


[21:49:21] Calliegirl:
so far, that's pretty much how i've approached it. the only other question i ask myself is 'why?' whether i am interested or disinterested,


[21:50:28] gentle:
why is always such a great question Calliegirl ~~ the answers can reveal so much.... how has asking and answering why helped you ?


[21:51:13] wildorchid:
real time to GM_Wylde *S*


[21:52:36] CC:
*grins* "why" worked with the kids when they were young learning new things ... and it still works as an adult


[21:52:39] GM_Wylde:
Smiles,Ay,Indeed r/t tis even harder,yet face 2 face meetings where one can look eye to eye will get the desired answers


[21:52:56] Calliegirl:
it helps me form the answers to the questions themselve s.


[21:53:48] gentle:
*grins right back at CC* what did answering "why" achieve when you asked your kids "why" ?


[21:53:51] jmcd702001:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>


[21:54:40] CC:
chuckles at gentle .... some times it generatated patient explaination and other times frustraion


[21:54:45] lilithsub:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>


[21:54:57] lilithsub:
<Enters the Dungeon.> <just sitting here>


[21:54:59] CC:
and that in itself is still something that happens when "why" comes up


[21:55:02] SassyandOrderLord:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[21:55:18] GM_Wylde:
grins at that one wif a deep,knowing


[21:55:24] Calliegirl:
asking and answering why questions also helps me form my beliefs and values. for me, it is not enough to say i believe something, i need to know why i believe it.


[21:56:19] gentle:
*grins at GM_Wylde* Why have your found "why" questions useful ?


[21:56:58] CC:
Calliegirl ~ and without asking the questions in and of ourselves one can be responding without really knowing why. It helps immeasuralby to frame the questions ...


[21:57:03] GM_Wylde:
Smiles,Always very helpful to ask "Why?"


[21:57:56] gentle:
*smiles warmly at Calliegirl* Calliegirl ... i love "why" questions ... because as your comment points out... the answers to "why" questions .... reveal motivations ... and if one is persistent and keeps asking "why" about a given topic.... one will finally reach one's bottomline... which is an extremely powerful place to operate from...


[21:58:46] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[21:58:55] CC:
gentle .. another thing I have noticed over the years ... is that asking why is one thing ... getting the answers is another and then asking why again to those answers can lead to deeper interspection


[21:59:12] CC:
*grins* LOVES the "bottom line"


[21:59:36] GM_Wylde:
When asking a question to either Top or bottom,Depending on the other's answers can reveal red flags and other signals to let ya know something tis afowl


[21:59:37] wildorchid:
Being asked why and asking yourself why tends to guide you in the direction of answers you may not have thought of before


[21:59:41] gentle:
*smiles at GM_Wylde* ... have you sometimes been surprised at the answers you have gotten to a "why" question ?


[21:59:47] Calliegirl:
a persistent question i have for myself as i observe other subs and slaves, is will i become an effective sub?


[22:00:08] gentle:
*laughs and grins and can't resist and wiggles my bottomline*


[22:00:31] Calliegirl:
often, i get my hackles up at being dependent on anyone for anything. i'm not sure i can submit my will to another.


[22:01:01] sighngwind:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[22:01:03] gentle:
CC ~~ exactly!


[22:01:20] gentle:
greetings sighngwind and welcome to DC !


[22:01:26] CC:
intersting question Calliegirl ...the question that immediatly brings to mind is "What do you consider an 'effective' sub?"


[22:02:01] GM_Wylde:
gentle, nothing surprises Me anymore,I've been around Lifestyle for over 30 years now and always very active in it


[22:02:06] Calliegirl:
when i ask that of others, i've often gotten the answer, 'when you meet your dominant, you will know. everything will be different.'


[22:02:10] lilithsub:
<just sitting here>


[22:02:13] Calliegirl:
that seems pretty trite to me.


[22:02:40] gentle:
GM_Wylde ... you make an excellent point... answers to why questions .... are often good checkpoints ... and help you determine if you are on course... or... need to make course corrections....


[22:03:04] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[22:03:36] GM_Wylde:
Calliegirl, tis indeed trite and a common misconception that is very "normal" that ya see in kink chatrooms


[22:04:28] CC:
Calligirl I do beleive there are varying degrees to which one can submit and still be a "good submissive" ... however I also believe that there is a certain amount of truth to it ...


[22:04:36] gentle:
Calliegirl ... I second CC's question ... what does an effective sub mean to you.... but if i might... i would suggest asking yourself ... why .... why are you interested in being a sub? what is it about being a sub which appeals to you?


[22:05:10] GM_Wylde:
gentle,It also helps Me to determine where I need to guide Me lil one[s] to see when their wants and needs change


[22:05:11] Calliegirl:
GM, i also get that question when i ask it of sub friends in r/l. it frustrates me. is there a magic neon sign that will illuminate the sky and point to 'my destined dominant'? sounds kinda like cinderella to me.


[22:06:22] gentle:
GM_Wylde ... oh.. another excellent point.. thank you !


[22:07:20] CC:
my underlying thoughts on that is that one IS a submissive or dominant regardless of having a partner ... having one however brings out the best in each of us. Just as not having one does not make us less so


[22:08:07] gentle:
Calliegirl... I have learned that as you get clearer about what you want .... and clear about your bottomline motivations.... doing both will help your attract and find the right dominant for you.


[22:08:17] GM_Wylde:
callie,perhaps they still are seeking themselves,And tis no neon sign,thats for sure,I would hope you have set up a checklist of some sorts to see what is it that you seek in a Dominant and what type of relationship you want or might consider


[22:08:20] Calliegirl:
to me an effective sub is willing to take direction, instruction, guidance from the dominant. in scenes i can do it just fine. but in a relationship setting, i don't know.


[22:08:29] GM_Wylde:
thank you gentle


[22:09:21] CC:
Calliegirl it is great to be grounded in reality ... way too often there is, as you said, a Cinderella or a romanticized bdsm novella mentality put to "what we are sposed to be" or the perfect sub or perfect dom. (psssssst neither of those actually exist)


[22:09:39] Calliegirl:
i was in such a disastrous marriage --- i let that relationship define my self-image, that i am not willing to give up my hard earned independence to another


[22:10:08] CC:
chuckles at GM ... LOVES your mention of a checklist of what one seeks .. it is something that over the years I have come to refer to as "framing the picture"


[22:10:27] sighngwind:
Evening gentle and All...excuse me while I get my bearings here.


[22:10:52] wildorchid:
From a post I made on the discussion board Calliegirl >>>Giving up control has never come easily for me. I have given a great deal of thought as to why it is so hard for me to give up control , to surrender. I have come to understand it stems from the need of an emotional bond, the need to feel secure and to trust in the One I am with. Over and above the trust you have to have in someone to allow them to tie you up, flog you, whip you, I need to have trust that I will be emotionally cared for. That is far harder to earn with me. >>>


[22:11:42] GM_Wylde:
CC,Thanx I developed My own "Framing" list for both Tops an bottoms over these years too,smiles


[22:11:57] CC:
smiles at Calliegirl ~ there are perhaps issues you need to identify and work on w/regard to relationships in general before you could find yourself feeling safe enough in your strength and identity to actually have the trust in another to be able to submit in that way. That takes patience and time. That is also something that way too many rush into ... like rolling a car downhill before finding out if the brakes work


[22:12:23] gentle:
Calliegirl .... being a sub should make you happy first .. and fulfill needs which you have... and your definition of an effective sub... should be one that also makes you happy.... you need to first focus on you... and making you happy.... for even if you give your all ... to a Dom/me ... if it doesn't make you happy in doing so ... it is not going to be a long term relationship.... and even more importantly... it will not add to and/or sustain who you are.


[22:12:24] Calliegirl:
yes wildorchid.....that's it! BUT, what i see that i need to work on in myself is getting there.


[22:13:17] wildorchid:
*S* Calliegirl I can relate to that myself


[22:13:36] gentle:
*grins quietly* Calliegirl ..... you once again bring me to my next point.... thank you !


[22:14:10] gentle:
We are not all one flavor… all the time.


[22:14:30] gentle:
There are many ways to say this .... but the bottom line is most people are a combination of many different needs, wants, and desires. Most of us do NOT fit into one neatly labelled category. So, when you are pondering the question, "What is my submission all about?", expect to find that you will have more than one answer.


[22:14:35] CC:
raises my hand for "oh fudge, oh nuts"!


[22:14:44] GM_Wylde:
Smiles,gentle took Me words out Me mouth


[22:15:18] gentle:
And... expect to find that overtime .... your flavors and answers will change !


[22:15:37] gentle:
For me, I adore Gorean men, but as I said above, I know I need to be partners in the decision making process in my relationships. I also like being treated tenderly, but sometimes like very much to be able to be fiesty with a very strong man.


[22:16:01] gentle:
I have many more flavors, some are subtle and some are obvious. And, over time, I have found that some flavors fade out and new ones take their place.


[22:16:17] gentle:
The important thing to know is to expect that you will have more than one dimension to your submission. Don't limit yourself by thinking I can only be Look for the different flavors and savor them!


[22:16:39] CC:
gentle I hope this isnt way off track .... I listen to some say "my submission" as it is a "thing" to be picked up at will or discarded in the same way ... personally I see "submission" as a part of who someone is ... an extension and amplification of self


[22:16:49] lilithsub:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[22:18:21] Calliegirl:
i tend to think of myself as a kaliedoscope...and submission is one of the turns and patterns.


[22:18:54] gentle:
CC ~~ thank you again for an excellent distinction.... and it is definitely on track... tonight's entire conversation is about founding out who we are ... and methods for doing so... and .... a submissive's submission... as you point out is not "outside" of a submissive or a "thing" but actually is just part of who a submissive is.


[22:19:47] wildorchid:
agreed CC being submissive is who I am not what I am it is a part of the whole woman I am *S*


[22:20:00] CC:
I am currently going through the relationship workbook by Harville Hendrix ... and so far it has had me focus on things in a different way and some of the revelations have been startling ... while it isnt "kink" oriented ... relationships are relationships regardless of their orientation


[22:20:42] sighngwind:
what ways do you deal with a situation in which you find that you are bumping heads on particular beliefs (ie: ways of doing things)


[22:20:50] sighngwind:
<just sitting here>


[22:21:03] gentle:
And, Calliegirl ... how this ties in to your current situation.... you may not be able to give your 100% trust to a Dom/me today... but it is not necessary that you do so either..... the Dom/mes I know and respect would never ask for more than a submissive could give today .... they might ask the sub to stretch ... but not overextend to the point that it is harmful ....


[22:21:22] sighngwind:
for instance : <chuckles at the 'just sitting here'>


[22:21:30] sighngwind:
<just sitting here>


[22:22:07] gentle:
CC do you have any suggestions for sighngwind ?


[22:22:58] springrain:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[22:23:38] gentle:
*grins and grins* greetings springrain and welcome !


[22:23:56] CC:
sorry gentle I missed the question *blushing and then sees springrain and hugs her*


[22:24:31] springrain:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[22:24:43] wildorchid:
<just sitting here>


[22:24:43] gentle:
no problem CC ! here it is ~~ what ways do you deal with a situation in which you find that you are bumping heads on particular beliefs (ie: ways of doing things)


[22:24:53] springrain:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[22:25:33] springrain:
*gives CC a squeeze*


[22:25:37] springrain:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[22:26:44] GM_Wylde:
sighngwind, I would hope that tween you and your Top you two do have a "open" chat time f2f where these problems can be talked about wif no repocussions to come to some sort of "compromise"


[22:26:45] gentle:
sighngwind ~~ from my perspective i would just say... check in to make sure that you are basically on the same wavelength as the Dom/me you are referring to .. that you have compatible and complimentary needs/wants/desires....


[22:27:02] CC:
ouch for one ... there are some things that are simply NOT negotiable and there are three levels at which I personally identify them .. one is soft limits, the other is hard limits and the other are core values ... the things that make up our essence and should NEVER be challenged and are essentially unchangeable ~ for most who have been in the lifestyle any amount of time ... you may have found that both soft and hard limits tend to change


[22:27:43] sighngwind:
I'm trying to think of a simple example and I'm not coming up with one...


[22:28:07] GM_Wylde:
ok heres one


[22:28:07] CC:
if one is continually "bumping heads" then perhaps one needs to eitehr approach each other with a differnt means of communication ... if it is not resovlable then perhaps a deeper look needs to be made as to actual compatibility


[22:28:55] GM_Wylde:
do you fix your plate of food first or your Top's and whom takes the first bite?


[22:31:05] Calliegirl:
i fix my top's plate first. and since that person is served first, the top takes the first bite. but i don't really worry about the first bite. i do however, want to make sure my top has all that he/she needs


[22:31:07] sighngwind:
for myself? I make sure that everyone else is served before I eat...


[22:31:09] sighngwind:
<just sitting here>


[22:31:31] wildorchid:
*needing to go and quietly slipping out*


[22:31:36] CC:
for some that would be a ritual of imporantance .. for others it might seem like over management ..


[22:31:36] wildorchid:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[22:31:40] CC:
n'night wowo


[22:31:50] Calliegirl:
i enjoy doing that little thing for my top. to me it is a means of expressing appreciation and enjoyment


[22:31:57] sighngwind:
my situation is a bit complicated...and I'm actually including kids in the answer...so, for me I serve, then eat...but it's not That formal


[22:32:18] CC:
and it makes you "happy" yes?


[22:32:45] sighngwind:
to know that everyone is taken care of? most certainly!


[22:33:38] gentle:
night night wild orchid.... :)


[22:34:06] GM_Wylde:
and tis just one of many kinds of examples there is,perhaps you have something else that is more in need of a direct answer?


[22:34:13] sighngwind:
I guess my question is more based on personal belief systems and for the most part I already got the answer (to look deeper into compatability)


[22:34:49] CC:
from a dominant point of veiw I appreciate "good service" ... to me that can mean many things ... but one of course it that the submissive gets joy in giving much as in the same way I enjoy his or her "joy" in doing so ...


[22:34:49] gentle:
thank you CC and GM ~~ excellent answers !


[22:35:55] gentle:
sighngwind .... your questions bring me to my next point.... thank you !


[22:35:58] CC:
sighgwind ... IF core values are challenged in a way that makes you feel that you have to defend or change them then I suspect there are deeper issues to be addressed.


[22:36:01] gentle:
Is it okay, if I don’t find a Dom/me who matches what I want exactly? The answer is … it depends.


[22:37:07] gentle:
*gleeps and grins and rephrases that last post* Is it okay, if I DO find a Dom/me who matches what I want exactly? The answer is … it depends.


[22:37:32] GM_Wylde:
Quite welcomes,gentle. I hope I am not stepping on anyones toes by answering some of these


[22:38:10] sighngwind:
that's more on target of what I was asking...core values and ways of doing things


[22:38:27] gentle:
*looks at the time and grins and tries once more* Is it okay, if I DO find a Dom/me who doesn't match what I want exactly? The answer is … it depends.


[22:38:51] gentle:
Sometimes it IS okay. A good way to help figure out when it is okay for your Dom/me to not match all your flavors is to ask yourself, what is most important to me. For example, is it critical for me to have a Master or am I open to either a Master or a Mistress ? If your answer is I want a Master, but if I found a Mistress who had all the qualities I am seeking in a Dominant, I could be happy. In this instance, it could be just fine that your Dominant didn't match what you were initially seeking.


[22:39:17] gentle:
What if one of your flavors is subtle - occasionally you really enjoy electrical play of the TENS unit. But your Dom/me has no interest or perhaps no expertise in this area. Though your need is not a burning desire day to day, your life just would not be the same if from time to time you didn't have your TENS unit play. In this case, it COULD BE just fine that your Dom/me doesn't match your desire for TENS play. If your Dom/me has an interest in your happiness, he can help you explore possibilities for you having your TENS play. Perhaps you two have a good friend who is a TENS expert. Or perhaps as a special birthday treat your Dom/me will arrange for another Dominant who enjoys TENS to play with you. The keywords here are partners and possibilities. As partners, you two can explore possiblities for savoring your subtle flavors.


[22:40:00] gentle:
There are some things, which are not negotiable for each of us. Often these areas have to do with our values and the essence of who we are. These are the areas which it is absolutely critical for your Dom/me to match with your desires 100%. For example, say it is important for your BDSM relationahips to involve sex, you are heterosexual and are not interested in exploring your sexuality with the same sex. You obviously would then not want a Dom/me of the same sex, nor would you want a Dom/me who wanted you to play with others of the same sex.


[22:40:01] CC:
sighngwind ... please feel free to get to the BRC discussion board and post more specific quesitons or comments later ... there are many that can add to what is shared here tonight


[22:40:11] GM_Wylde:
very well spoken,gentle


[22:40:40] CC:
*winks at gentle w/my 4 tens units*


[22:41:08] CC:
bravo especially on that last comment


[22:41:22] sighngwind:
lately I am feeling more like I have to change whereas in the past I was accepted for who I am


[22:42:20] GM_Wylde:
sigh,did you have a Lifestyle relationship before this one? or a vanilla one?


[22:42:41] sighngwind:
sure have and do


[22:43:03] CC:
the difference is in what areas one is finding those "changes" ... sometimes change is a way to challenge ourselves to be better or stretch our imagination ...


[22:43:14] Calliegirl:
<sitting on the dock of the bay>


[22:43:56] GM_Wylde:
then you know that just like all bottoms,not all Tops are taught the same ways nor have a "aura of same Honor Codes " to go by


[22:44:44] gentle:
GM ~~ your particpation and input are very welcome ! As in everyones here tonight.... my personal perspective is that we each bring a piece of the puzzle to the table ... and I am most appreciate that you and CC have such good answers, as well as the input of Calliegirl and sighnwind .... who with their questions have helped us explore the topic in depth... :)


[22:44:51] CC:
falls out laughing as I start humming Otis Redding!!! Shoot ... thank goodness I KNOW I am not a perfect dominant so I am not looking for a perfect submissive ...course finding the "imperfect" submissive can be almost as challenging ...


[22:45:21] sighngwind:
I have both vanilla <sorta hubby is sub> and a Master who I have known for over 5 years


[22:45:24] sighngwind:
<just sitting here>


[22:46:18] sighngwind:
what has recently changed is the addition of a collar to the relationship in the last 6 months...this has caused numerous issues to arise that I never expected


[22:46:29] CC:
GM ... it would be WONDERFUL if we could always assume that another is honorable ...all too sadly there are often hidden agendas that are more "about me" than "about the we" which often has devastating effects


[22:46:39] GM_Wylde:
when you get into another relationship wif a different Top,then that Top has their own ways an rules to go by and those rules of "ettiquette" must be talked all out in front first


[22:47:34] CC:
I'm curious sighngwind ... did you actually go through a formality of negotiating a contract that included areas that were sacrosant?


[22:47:54] GM_Wylde:
CC,very true and well said


[22:48:03] GM_Wylde:
gentle,thank you again


[22:48:06] CC:
*nods that GM and I seem to be on the same wavelength*


[22:48:28] GM_Wylde:
Ay,Indeed


[22:48:40] sighngwind:
sacrosant? as in sacride?


[22:49:31] CC:
gentle you have again shared a wonderful presentation ... thank you so much! I am already looking forward to what you will share "next quarter"? *grins*


[22:49:32] Calliegirl:
thank you all for your input. you've given me a lot to think about and some directions to head...i appreciate it very much.


[22:49:37] CC:
ahh sacred?


[22:49:58] sighngwind:
hmm...I guess all in all I took the contract as that I was already accepted and appreciated and vice versa towards the other side


[22:50:00] sighngwind:
<just sitting here>


[22:50:13] sighngwind:
oops lol yeah...sacred


[22:50:15] CC:
I do hope that all of you take the time to explore the discussion board as we can share more often there as things come up without having to be topic specific


[22:50:29] gentle:
just some respectful thoughts.... being Dominant does not mean one is right all the time ... nor does it mean that a Dominant's way is the ONLY way... imho ... the BDSM relationship is about partnership... with both partners having rights. And, there is the natural flow in the relationship.. of one person being more dominant and one more submissive than the other... but also... there is the negotiated part ... where rights are discussed upfront before they are consenually released...


[22:51:08] gentle:
*grins at CC* next quarter ?


[22:51:16] GM_Wylde:
sigh,so you have a beaner err tis what I call nillas hubby thats sort of passive and a Top that ya been wif for 5 years and just recently a collar[Of what type?] has came about. I hope you hubby knows of this arrangement


[22:51:29] CC:
There are a couple subjects coming up and Jack Rinella has agreed to come and do a presentation ... currently we are discussing what he is to address .. I do so enjoy his straight forward answers


[22:51:52] sighngwind:
but somewhere along the line it seems that the contract has turned more into a 'time to pick on sigh' thing and now I find myself asking all kinds of questions that I (maybe) should have asked 5 year ago


[22:51:58] gentle:
*smiles warmly at everyone* thank you all for being part of the presentation tonight... you each added immeasurably to making it interesting and valuable .. thank you !


[22:52:38] sighngwind:
I have a hubby who is subby by nature and YES has Always been in the lifestyle with me and does know all that I do...matter of fact he's sitting 3 ft away right now lol


[22:52:55] leveledout:
<Enters the Dungeon>


[22:53:04] sighngwind:
I have been with my husband for over 10 years and have known my Master for over 5 (not hubby)


[22:53:23] CC:
sighngwind ... things change ... some of the questions you are now asking you many not have known to ask 5 years ago. That is one of the reasons that many contracts are open to renegotiation ... for we all change/grow


[22:53:52] GM_Wylde:
gentle,thank you and you answered the same as I would on sigh's last one ya did,smiles


[22:53:53] CC:
good lines of communication go both ways and sometimes those lines break down


[22:54:24] GM_Wylde:
sigh,okies just wanted to clear it up somewhat


[22:54:29] CC:
*looks heavenward as I suggest another topic for ms gentle*


[22:54:53] Calliegirl:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[22:54:59] gentle:
*sends a hug winging gently over to sighngwind* sounds like you are in a learning and growth phrase... and something to consider.... you can make this positive simply by framing in a way which supports who you are and that you are valuable .... by focusing on what am I learning here ...


[22:55:20] gentle:
*laughs softly at CC*


[22:55:21] leveledout:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[22:56:13] sighngwind:
love Jack Rinella's posts...thanks for the heads up on that


[22:56:35] CC:
nods to gentles response ... we all have rights as well as the responsiblity and obligation to self to communicate our wants needs and desires in healthy relationships .. if that breaks down so does the relationships foundation


[22:56:40] GM_Wylde:
sigh,learning and growing are forever ongoing things,IMHO If neither learns something new everyday then both stop growing


[22:57:01] gentle:
*grins and smiles at GM* I am tremendously complimented ....


[22:57:04] sighngwind:
yes, I've put myself over years into a very difficult position and I have no idea where it is going to go...all I know for sure is I have to be myself and I don't feel that I can be right now


[22:58:05] CC:
sighngwind .. there are several great, but not as well known presenters coming up ... do check in from time to time ...the BRCs front page lists upcoming chat topics


[22:58:27] CC:
are you familiar with Charlene's song ..."I've never been to me"


[22:58:28] sighngwind:
at the same time I am reaching out in other areas in my community....my primary relationship is at a standstill right now mostly because I just don't know what to do


[22:58:56] sighngwind:
don't think I know that song


[22:59:13] CC:
to your own self be true ... if you cannot do that then I find it difficult to imagine that one can do so honesty with another


[22:59:22] sighngwind:
I will definitely check out the website...been meaning to make one of these chats for a number of months and kept missing them


[22:59:24] GM_Wylde:
gentle,you have a very keen insight and a intelligent mind


[23:00:06] GM_Wylde:
Well said CC, Well said Indeed!!


[23:00:06] CC:
GW ~ gentle is very special


[23:00:37] GM_Wylde:
I see and rare too


[23:00:48] gentle:
there are so many levels... of learning to be true to oneself .... it is a process...


[23:00:56] GM_Wylde:
<looking ta see iffin I made her blush or not


[23:00:57] gentle:
*blushes*


[23:01:07] gentle:
*lol*


[23:01:17] GM_Wylde:
Laffs


[23:01:23] CC:
and ahh she DOES really blush


[23:02:23] GM_Wylde:
I have no doubt


[23:02:45] CC:
http://www.thebrc.net/discus/messages/409/458.html#POST1540 here is a cut and paste addy for the words for the song ...


[23:02:55] GM_Wylde:
Mine usually blushes when I walk into a room an just a mere look


[23:03:12] CC:
I'm trying to remember who is up next week .. . I think that it may be Lady Beth from SC LOCK ...


[23:03:33] GM_Wylde:
nods


[23:03:39] gentle:
well .... *still blushing and laughing* it is definitely time for bed.... thank you all again... you are all great... :)


[23:03:53] gentle:
night night everyone!


[23:03:57] gentle:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[23:04:19] CC:
wooo hoo .. that is right Lady Beth will be here next week with the topic of Mentoring


[23:04:26] GM_Wylde:
And a goodnight to all I will be back soon


[23:04:55] CC:
G'night everyone ... and thanks for the great interaction ... bring a friend next time!


[23:04:58] GM_Wylde:
I will send that "thingy" CC


[23:05:12] sighngwind:
Goodnight and Thank You


[23:05:21] CC:
chuckles ...


[23:05:32] CC:
g'night and hope to see you "on the boards"


[23:05:54] GM_Wylde:
Aye


[23:06:04] GM_Wylde:
<Has left the Dungeon>


[23:06:13] CC:
<Has left the Dungeon>