[18:45:24] peachy:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[18:45:25] Clevedom:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[18:46:11] peachy:
*sighs* ... wish i had taken the time to read when Chat was going to be open so that i could talk to someone ... *sighs again*

[20:52:14] honeysweet:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[20:52:15] peachy:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[20:52:39] CC:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[20:52:45] CC:
goodness

[20:52:59] CC:
evening

[20:53:00] honeysweet:
hello cc

[20:53:14] CC:
eveyones clock must be faster than mine!

[20:53:29] honeysweet:
ummm nope it's 9 here

[20:53:32] honeysweet:
lol

[20:53:48] CC:
new here?

[20:54:08] CC:
see my clock is SLOW .. it still says I have 3 min for coffee yet!

[20:54:27] CC:
and *pointing to the log time* I still have SIX minutes!

[20:54:47] honeysweet:
yes, received a post to my groups email about a discussion tonight

[20:54:52] honeysweet:
laughs

[20:55:02] CC:
Anyway ... I expect to have at least a few others join us ... *S* do you know the topic or did you just happen by?

[20:55:10] CC:
wow!

[20:55:26] CC:
you answered that question before I ever asked it .. you're terriffic!

[20:55:55] honeysweet:
it is the ABC of legalities something to that affect..

[20:56:05] CC:
very good .. *S*

[20:56:43] CC:
Sassy Sioux will be joining us soon ... do you happen to have any issues/questions that you would particularly like addressed?

[20:57:01] gentle:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[20:57:05] SassySioux:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[20:57:14] gentle:
hello everyone.. *S*

[20:57:30] honeysweet:
no, thank You was simply going to sit in listen and learn

[20:57:42] CC:
chuckles .. was wondering when the two of you were going to show up

[20:57:51] gentle:
brb.. *S*

[20:57:52] gentle:
<Has left the Dungeon>

[20:58:15] gentle:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[20:58:36] SassySioux:
good evening all

[20:59:35] CC:
A, B, C's of BDSM legal considerationWhat? How, when, why and what things you should consider with regard to lifestyle legal issues . Thank you for joining us as CC and Sassy Sioux cover many commonly asked questions.

[20:59:55] honeysweet:
Evening

[21:00:16] CC:
Introductions first ....if you dont mind ....

[21:00:18] CC:
Sassy?

[21:00:34] SassySioux:
sure

[21:00:57] SassySioux:
my name is Sassy, and i have been in the lifestyle for over 30 years

[21:01:13] SassySioux:
i am trained as a paralegal and an investigator

[21:01:36] SassySioux:
i have written several articles that can be found here on the BRC

[21:02:04] SassySioux:
and i am a submissive, married to my Dom

[21:02:09] SassySioux:
we are in a 24/7 D/s relationship

[21:02:14] lilypet:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:02:39] JollyRoger84:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:02:59] lilypet:
evening everyone *s*

[21:03:18] SassySioux:
evening lily and jolly

[21:03:18] CC:
evening there JollyRoger and lilypet :) good to have you both here ...

[21:03:32] CC:
Tonights topic: A, B, C's of BDSM legal considerationWhat? How, when, why and what things you should consider with regard to lifestyle legal issues . Thank you for joining us as CC and Sassy Sioux cover many commonly asked questions.

[21:03:38] gentle:
hiya lily!

[21:04:05] JollyRoger84:
thank you... <s.

[21:05:12] CC:
wonders if we lost Sassy there

[21:05:13] MsPam:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:05:33] SassySioux:
sorry - phone call from work

[21:05:46] CC:
okay ... I'm CC ... chief cook and bottle washer here at the BRC ... along w/ms lilypet who is my right hand helper

[21:05:50] SassySioux:
anyway, we currently live in Columbus, OH

[21:06:07] JollyRoger84:
no rest for the wicked, huh? smile

[21:06:36] MsPam:
Good evening

[21:06:57] MsPam:
I am from South Carolina

[21:06:58] SassySioux:
you got that right JollyRodger

[21:07:13] SassySioux:
good evening MsPam

[21:07:24] CC:
Dungeon Chat began back in 98 ... and developed into an educational website with over 300 lifestyle articles, an emailable bdsm checklist, special featured columnists as well as a topic driven discussion board that even addresses health issues

[21:07:29] lilypet:
welcome MsPam *s*

[21:07:46] CC:
wonders if MsPam made it to the greenville lock outing this past weekend

[21:07:55] MsPam:
evening Sassy

[21:08:04] MsPam:
hello lilypet

[21:08:11] MsPam:
no

[21:08:13] Quantum:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:08:17] gentle:
<just sitting here>

[21:08:17] MsPam:
I work most weekends

[21:08:33] MsPam:
since last October, work has intered with life way too much

[21:08:39] CC:
there have been a great many people I can thank for helping to build the BRC as well as those that have contributed their time on the site and those that have gracefully contributed their intellectual property to be housed here for the benefit of all

[21:08:48] MsPam:
I belong to T3 in Columbia

[21:09:06] MsPam:
originally from the coast of NC.. belong to CCMunch and WINK there

[21:09:11] Quantum:
Good evening everyone

[21:09:16] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:09:28] CC:
and ... well I mostly hang out in Atlanta ... and hope to get more active this year as life looks like it taking a more pleasant turn this year

[21:09:49] CC:
okay we have ohio .. georgia ... sc .... and canada ...where else?

[21:09:53] MsPam:
have yet to go to Atlanta

[21:09:54] CC:
evening there ..

[21:10:04] MsPam:
it is about 4 hours from me.. I am east of Columbia

[21:10:17] honeysweet:
virginia

[21:10:38] honeysweet:
but i am a member of a group in NC

[21:11:09] CC:
okay ... seems we are filling up ... so here is a loose format for tonights chat ... I will be posing questions to Sassy ... please feel free to contribute to the question discussion but PLEASE stay on track with each question

[21:11:26] CC:
hmmm Ms Pam .. do say Hi to Lord Hamilton for me :)

[21:11:29] MsPam:
I will be back in a few minutes.. have dinner cooking.. would that be TTC out of the Raleigh area honey?

[21:11:36] MsPam:
I belong to that one also

[21:12:05] MsPam:
I will CC .. does he know you as CC?

[21:12:05] honeysweet:
yes MsPam

[21:12:22] CC:
Some of the things we will cover tonight is why contracts can be more than a piece of paper, wills, durable power of attorney and health issues and protecting yourself and others

[21:12:32] CC:
MsPam he knows me that way *S*

[21:12:33] MsPam:
have you gotten to any of their functions honey?

[21:12:46] CC:
so ... here we go ...

[21:12:53] MsPam:
I still need one workshop but the distance makes it really difficult..

[21:12:58] honeysweet:
yes was at the workshop on Sunday..iinnnn crediable..

[21:13:02] MsPam:
ok .. shoot

[21:13:09] honeysweet:
have been to several others as well

[21:13:42] CC:
Sassy ... You have been in the lifestyle for a number of years and are married to your Dom. I know that you have a contract(s) ... Could you please share with us some of the things you have included in yours and why?

[21:13:50] MsPam:
then you know beca and DomDarr and mysty and MsTempest

[21:14:11] Daddy:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:14:50] SassySioux:
well, first of all, our contract covers our marriage, our lifestyle, and it spells out clearly what is acceptable and what is not

[21:15:02] CC:
For those that do not know how ... private messaging is workable in here like this: "/msg MsPam(or whomever) and then type your message" do not however use the quotes .... and *g* I suggest you try it before you try something "cute"

[21:15:26] MsPam:
thank you

[21:15:32] SassySioux:
it clearly defines the limits and safewords

[21:15:45] SassySioux:
it also states what is expected from each of us

[21:15:56] CC:
Sassy ... and why these things are important ...

[21:16:45] SassySioux:
first of all, we both know what we can expect from each other, and what we can count on to not be part of our life

[21:17:28] SassySioux:
also, the contract states clearly that i consent to certain types of assault so that if there is ever any interference from the police, it will protect my Dom

[21:18:16] SassySioux:
in our lifestyle, there is a certain amount of consentual assault, but having it clearly defined and in writing can be a lifesaver if ever taken to court

[21:18:43] SassySioux:
while these contracts are not enforceable per se, they can be quite valuable as a defense

[21:19:30] MsPam:
Do you think that is pretty universal or very variable state to state?

[21:20:01] CC:
Sassy ... I have always heard you could not consent to assault ... so tell me how that piece of paper can make a difference in court? And because of the range that play can include do you have a detailed form for each activity? (do you recommend this in public play w/non-significant/married parnters as well?

[21:20:09] SassySioux:
each state has different laws, but most are based on the same guidelines

[21:20:35] CC:
MsPam ... last I heard you could still not get a dang tattoo in SC

[21:20:39] SassySioux:
CC, first of all, one CAN consent to simple assault

[21:20:49] SassySioux:
contact sports is a good example of this

[21:21:04] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:21:08] JollyRoger84:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[21:21:36] SassySioux:
as far as our play in concerned, we are indeed consenting to simple assault, and know that there may be marks or bruises, but we do not expect or anticipate physical harm

[21:22:26] SassySioux:
these contracts are a way of proving that consent and therefore prtect the dominant partner from arrest or tort charges

[21:22:36] CC:
ooppppppps ... reminder reminder ... If you are just sitting "listening" remember to click the "talk" button about every 5 min or you will "fall out" of the room

[21:23:02] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:23:36] CC:
Sassy ... again as MsPam asked ... some laws are based on where you live so best to check with your friendly kinky lawyer ... but being informed IS YOUR personal responsibility

[21:23:37] SassySioux:
as for details, that is not always totally necessary, but if playing with an unfamiliar partner or someone new, the more defined it is, the less risk that is taken

[21:23:46] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:23:48] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:23:58] Quantum:
Thanks CC

[21:24:29] SassySioux:
CC, good point ... one thing i remember quite well from criminal law class was the comment, 'Ignorance is NOT a defense"

[21:24:32] CC:
hate to have a civil suit for falling going on here :)

[21:25:28] CC:
Sassy ... when I see people meeting others for the first time .... *cruinges* I realllllllllly want to rake a few people over the coals. What, in your opinion, should be minimally considered in meeting someone the first time?

[21:26:07] SassySioux:
actually, the sub can file a civil battary suit if things do not go the way s/he wishes, but with a contract, the chances of that suit getting to court are slim to none

[21:26:25] SassySioux:
first meetings, in my opinion, should be held in a neutral setting

[21:26:41] CC:
A neutral motel?

[21:26:45] CC:
*coughs*

[21:26:50] SassySioux:
get to know the poeple over coffee, exchange names, phone numbers, etc.

[21:27:19] SassySioux:
find out what their interests are, what they expect from play, and tell them what you are looking for

[21:27:28] CC:
names/phone numbers/drivers licenses before meeting?

[21:27:28] SassySioux:
NEVER play at a first meeting

[21:27:41] SassySioux:
yes - ask to see their drivers' license

[21:28:02] Quantum:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:28:06] SassySioux:
if they are not willing to share this with you, then they are hiding something

[21:28:10] honeysweet:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[21:28:19] MsPam:
OK now in reality, when at a play party and someone new comes up to you, can offer references, and likes your style of play or has heard how you are with a flogger or whatever and wants to play, how many carry contracts in their pockets?

[21:29:04] SassySioux:
once again, get to know the person before playing

[21:29:10] leatherdanzer:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[21:29:35] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:29:37] SassySioux:
perhaps the dungeon where you are at has some generic contracts that will allow you to fill in the blanks

[21:29:44] CC:
Not everyone has access to police information and investigative expertise ... but there are places where one can also meet to play first time (or more) until they are comfortable ... DON"T let the horemones goe into overdrive - get involved with a local munch /play group or join a dungeon

[21:29:45] leatherdanzer:
hola room

[21:30:14] MsPam:
be back in a few...

[21:30:22] CC:
MsPam ... I suspect not a lot of us do ... but it might honestly be wise to have a base one to which certain stipulations could be added

[21:31:14] CC:
On the other hand I've had primarily one play partner for over 5 years .... I suspect that any "new ones" will have their share of negotiations with at least some do's and don'ts written down

[21:31:22] CC:
evening there leather danzer

[21:31:29] SassySioux:
i agree with you CC - and i think dungeons should offer them along with the furniture and other items

[21:31:45] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:32:05] CC:
*nods to Sassy* it is however up to the participants to use them ..

[21:32:10] SassySioux:
we have had others ask to play with us in the past, and we have gone through some long negotiations before ever doing anything

[21:32:38] CC:
I also think that using them on a regular basis might also help "protect" the dungeon "just in case"

[21:32:40] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:32:49] SassySioux:
if someone is not willing to negotiate, then i am not willing to play with them

[21:33:26] SassySioux:
good point CC - the dungeon could be named in a suit and be liable to some stiff penalties

[21:33:38] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:34:04] leatherdanzer:
hi CC, heard about the chat conserning some of the legal aspects. looks like basic common sense protocol...will sit in on this one,, no mastter how long you have been around alwasys a good idea to check in with this

[21:34:33] SassySioux:
today's legal climate will allow for lawsuits over some very minor things

[21:34:41] leatherdanzer:
damn..fat fingers.....

[21:34:42] CC:
I am guilty of that myself .. I have negotiated with the few others I have played with .. but most of those negotiations have been verbal and therefore I have not coverd my backside as much as I could have .. .granted most that I have played with I have known for a good long time or the play was not "intense"

[21:34:55] SassySioux:
better to have some sort of consent to protect all concerned

[21:35:43] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:36:02] CC:
Sassy ... moving along ... what about non-traditional or unmarried couples? What about protecting their property(going into a realtionship and going out of it) as well as long term health care options and rights?

[21:36:41] SassySioux:
there are a number of ways to protect non-traditional couples

[21:36:55] CC:
leatherdanzer a lot of it is just that ... common sense . however there are times when other things outweigh common sense and just reviewing options and even opinions make us less vulnerable

[21:36:57] SassySioux:
one of the first i recommend is a durable power of attorney

[21:37:02] MsPam:
<just sitting here>

[21:37:16] SassySioux:
also, a type of prenuptual agreement is wise to have in force

[21:37:26] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:37:45] CC:
before you go on Sassy ... please explain power of attorney and durable power of attorney and the differnce

[21:37:48] SassySioux:
if this is a long-term commited relationship, then to make sure your partner gets the compensation you want them to have, draw up a simple will

[21:38:15] SassySioux:
a simple power of attorney gives permission for a person to handle certain things for a limited amount of time

[21:38:59] SassySioux:
a durable power of attorney can be indefinite and will allow for the holder to make medical decisions for the grantor in case the grantor is mentally or physically unable to do so

[21:39:19] CC:
is there a time when the simple power of attorney would cease to be valid?

[21:39:43] SassySioux:
a general power of attorney will not allow this - once the grantor has lost ability to make decisions for themselves, the general POA is null and void

[21:40:35] CC:
and with that durable power of attorney ... would that allow the holders opinion outweigh that of say a family member in the event of a life/death issue/decision?

[21:40:52] SassySioux:
so, a durable power of attorney will stay in effect even if the grantor has become mentally incompetent

[21:41:17] SassySioux:
it will outweigh the fmaily because the law carries more weight than blood relationship

[21:41:49] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:41:49] SassySioux:
the grantor has given this special right to a specific person for reasons of their own

[21:42:00] CC:
and that could be very important especially in a non traditional relationship in which the family objects

[21:42:11] SassySioux:
as an adult, they have that right, but it must be spelled out in writing

[21:42:14] CC:
(or isnt aware of the relationship)

[21:42:28] SassySioux:
yes, it can be extremely important

[21:43:02] CC:
so ... once again it is up to us to protect our rights and those we care about by taking those legal options BEFORE we need to use them

[21:43:04] SassySioux:
the durable POA will take precidence over anything the family may want

[21:43:18] SassySioux:
same way with a will

[21:43:47] SassySioux:
once it is in writing, it takes a court order to have it changed, and that doesn't happen very often

[21:44:02] Quantum:
So can a will be a substitue for a durable POA? In the even t of death?

[21:44:07] SassySioux:
one would have to prove that the writer was not of sound mind when the will was written

[21:44:28] SassySioux:
a will comes into effect only after the writer has died

[21:44:43] leatherdanzer:
Now could a POA cover a specified time line. for instance with a court case, or bankrupcy where there is a specified time line

[21:44:43] SassySioux:
a durable POA will be in effect from the moment it is written

[21:44:49] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:45:00] Quantum:
I am assumeing we are speaking more of the laws in the U.S.A. correct?

[21:45:11] SassySioux:
danzer, it can be set up for a specified amount of time

[21:45:22] CC:
That is one other point I would really like to bring up.... Find a 'kinky attorney" ... have him draw up your will (it is updateable) .... if you need some other legal advise and he/she is suitable for your needs use them. What if you were at an event and it was busted ... who is more likely to come to your aid .... an attorney you dug up out of the phonebook or an attorney that you had already used and was familiar with you and your lifestyle?

[21:45:30] SassySioux:
yes, Quantum

[21:46:16] CC:
Quantum ... yes, the US ... and even here it is good to check with your local legal eagle to make sure that your area does not have differing laws

[21:46:24] gentle:
the durable POA does not have to be notarized to be in effect? or witnessed? or put on file? to be in effect Sassy?

[21:46:26] CC:
Where are you from Quantum?

[21:46:37] SassySioux:
first of all, anything you tell an attorney must be kept confidential unless it is about a crime of bodily harm or death that you intent to carry out

[21:46:54] Quantum:
Canada

[21:47:17] SassySioux:
having an attorney who knows about your lifestyle in advance is far more advantageous than the typical public defender

[21:47:19] CC:
good question there gentle .... *winks*

[21:47:27] leatherdanzer:
Is there a resourse for kink friendly leagal assitance

[21:47:43] SassySioux:
gentle, in order to be effective, the POA must be notarized, and preferably drawn up by an attorney

[21:47:57] SassySioux:
the will does not

[21:48:13] CC:
Quantum if you or lilypet have some Canadian points of view please feel free to share them with us as well

[21:48:35] SassySioux:
a holographic will (handwritten) is legal and binding provided it is signed and witnessed

[21:48:49] CC:
<<<<<<<<< think I'm going to get that notary thing going here :)

[21:49:05] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[21:49:06] SassySioux:
danzer, there are several websites that list kink friendly professionals

[21:49:14] gentle:
to be in effect, the will needs to be both signed and dated though Sassy? *lol*...

[21:49:33] gentle:
you beat me to the answer... Sassy... *G*

[21:49:39] Quantum:
Thanks CC I will

[21:49:40] SassySioux:
yes, gentle, and witnessed

[21:49:47] CC:
*grins at ms gentle knowing her points of reference*

[21:49:56] MsPam:
<just sitting here>

[21:50:11] SassySioux:
the reason for witnesses is to be able to prove in probate that the will was indeed written by that person

[21:50:36] gentle:
Is it a good practice to have you will drawn up by an attorney, and should one make sure he/she dates the will as well as having it signed and witnessed Sassy?

[21:50:42] CC:
lets get those all together in one sentence now ... for a will to be valid it needs to be signed, dated, witnessed but not notarized

[21:50:44] Quantum:
By chance do you have the website for the kinky friendly professionals?

[21:50:50] gentle:
what is your witnesses are no longer available Sassy?

[21:51:05] SassySioux:
yes, if at all possible, have it drawn up by an attorney

[21:51:35] SassySioux:
however, this is not necessary provided you write it out clearly and have it signed and dated

[21:51:53] SassySioux:
the dates are vital to prove it is the latest will

[21:52:14] CC:
I know when I did mine I had a copy in my safe deposit box, a copy was at my attorneys as well as a copy available at home to have handy "just in case" ... for it also contained my wishes for funeral arrangements ... NOT something you want "discoverd" three months AFTER you are buried

[21:52:20] SassySioux:
quantum, i can find it for you and email it to you at another time

[21:52:46] SassySioux:
good point CC

[21:52:52] Quantum:
I have been invited to several play parties in the U.S.A. will my rights differ from someone that resides there?

[21:53:06] Quantum:
Thanks SassySioux

[21:53:29] SassySioux:
gentle, if the witnesses are unavailable, it is best to create a new will which will supercede any previous wills and get new people to witness it

[21:53:48] SassySioux:
however, if it is drawn up by an attorney, this is not necessary unless you make changes to the will

[21:54:01] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:54:27] SassySioux:
Quantum, that is a very good question, and it would depend on which state you are in

[21:54:38] Quantum:
Even if the attorney no longer in practice?

[21:54:42] CC:
http://www.bannon.com/kap/index.htm Kink Aware Professionals

[21:54:59] SassySioux:
as a guest in the states, you will have certain rights, but not as many as someone who lives here

[21:55:17] Quantum:
CA is where I am refering too in this instance

[21:56:08] SassySioux:
Quantum, if the attorney is no longer in practice, or his office is no longer in practice, then the will would be turned over to another office and attorney

[21:56:29] SassySioux:
it would not invalidate the will

[21:56:34] CC:
Quantum .. what part of Canada are you in? http://kap.vancouverleather.com/ I dont know how extensive this site is .. but it is a start...

[21:56:34] Quantum:
IC.. thank you

[21:56:50] Quantum:
Alberta

[21:57:11] SassySioux:
basically, being from Canada, you would fall under Federal rights as well as states rights

[21:57:16] CC:
good question there Quantum

[21:57:43] gentle:
regarding contracts between partners, both committed and play, where would you recommend keeping the original(s) and perhaps copies?... and is there a time limit one should keep the contracts?

[21:57:53] SassySioux:
i would suggest contacting someone in CA that would be more familiar with their laws and seeking edification

[21:58:23] Quantum:
I will thanks

[21:58:24] SassySioux:
i would keep the contracts in a safe deposit box, on a computer disk, or in a fire proof safe

[21:58:46] SassySioux:
as for the time limit, that would depend upon the wording of the contract

[21:59:24] SassySioux:
if the contract is for a specified time, then one or two years after it ends would be long enough to cover the statutes of limitations

[21:59:47] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[21:59:54] MsPam:
<just sitting here>

[21:59:59] SassySioux:
the ones i have are open-ended and subject to review and revision at anytime as well as annual review

[22:00:03] CC:
notes: at the kink aware professional site there are links for various states

[22:00:28] Quantum:
would you have an outline to share as regarding a contract betwen partners that you could share SassySioux?

[22:01:00] SassySioux:
yes, and i will be happy to help anyone draw up a contract that will fit their own needs

[22:01:32] Quantum:
Again.. thanks

[22:01:32] CC:
Sassy ... what about a submissive going to a Dom/me ... what about property going into a relationship and the disposition of property should the relationship end?

[22:01:38] leatherdanzer:
<just sitting here>

[22:02:28] Quantum:
would that be any diferent then a commonlaw relationship?

[22:02:31] SassySioux:
if a submissive switches to Dom/me, then the contracts need to be revised to allow for this

[22:02:59] SassySioux:
as far as property held privately prior to a relationship, this is where a type of prenuptual agreement comes into play

[22:03:44] SassySioux:
it clearly defines what property is held solely by each partner, and protects it from becoming "community property" in the event of a break-up

[22:03:47] Quantum:
Well.. not sure about the U.S.A. but in Canda.. a good lawyer will have most prenups thrown out

[22:03:57] Quantum:
Canada even

[22:04:20] hislildeleon:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[22:04:23] SassySioux:
depends on the wording of the prenup and what the property is

[22:04:34] CC:
well Quantum if you are in a non-traditional relationship ie gay/lesbian/poly there can be a big difference. And for instance several states have done away with recognizing common law marriages .. Georgia being one of them

[22:05:12] SassySioux:
Ohio has recently done away with it as well, and therefore there is no "community property"

[22:05:23] Quantum:
Well.. here.. not sure exactly what the law says.. but my X owns a Cessna now that she couldn't find the gas cap on lol

[22:05:51] SassySioux:
however, unless it is in writing as to who owned what before hand, it is easy for the ex-partner to claim legal ownership that doesn't exist

[22:06:09] CC:
(that does not, of course, nullify current recognized common law marriages)

[22:06:31] SassySioux:
very true, CC

[22:06:32] gentle:
Sassy..... in terms of what to share with their families, how would you advise people... who were leaving a significant portion or all of their assets to their sub or Dom/me to whom they were not married?

[22:06:42] CC:
Quantum ... used to have a lot of fun in a couple of Cessnas and Bonanzas

[22:07:25] Quantum:
As did I lol.. oh well.. next time :-)

[22:07:40] SassySioux:
gentle, it would depend on the individuals and the nature of the relationship and length of it

[22:08:00] leatherdanzer:
Is not community property and common law a different thing.. If I recall there are only 5 full community property states. all otheres are partial or no community property

[22:08:24] SassySioux:
you can leave what is yours to anyone you wish provided it isn't in violation of the law of your state

[22:08:26] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[22:08:28] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:08:32] CC:
I can only imagine that some families would very much like to contest some wills

[22:08:52] SassySioux:
actually, many are contested

[22:09:26] SassySioux:
you cannot leave all your estate to someone you are not related to if you have a spouse and kids

[22:09:41] hislildeleon:
hello to all i just joined this group today so i thought i would see if i could actually find my way to the chat rm.

[22:10:02] SassySioux:
however, if you are not married, have no kids, then you can do as you wish with your possessions based on the testate laws of your state

[22:10:18] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:10:57] Quantum:
welcome hislildeleon

[22:11:04] CC:
ohhhhhhhh speaking of property ... in the event that non married partners own a home ... what way is it most adventageous tax wise ... *thinking* what is that ... joint tennancy ... ack .. cant remember

[22:11:08] lilypet:
welcome hislildeleon

[22:11:09] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[22:11:43] SassySioux:
joint tenancy in common

[22:11:55] hislildeleon:
thank you

[22:12:06] SassySioux:
in that case, the home would have to be sold

[22:12:15] SassySioux:
mortgages are not assumable

[22:13:07] CC:
what about ... *nudges the icq messenger w/a grin* joint tennency w/right of survivorship ....

[22:13:08] SassySioux:
and you would need a good financial adviser as well as an experienced tax attorney to help you there

[22:13:09] Quantum:
awww.. a difference in law here.. in Alberta.. they are

[22:13:22] SassySioux:
survivorship requires marriage

[22:13:34] CC:
aha!!!!! I was wondering about that ...

[22:13:59] SassySioux:
non-married couples cannot set up a survivorship title

[22:14:10] CC:
what if it were done as a business investment with assets to be inheritied as part of the deceased will

[22:14:16] Quantum:
I think Alberta is the only province that does allow it though

[22:14:35] CC:
*ducks* just tossing out possibilities

[22:14:36] SassySioux:
however, the house could be left to the significant other in a will

[22:14:57] MsPam:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[22:15:00] CC:
as always ... do your own thinking .. check your local laws!!!!!!!

[22:15:08] SassySioux:
but the SO may have to get a new mortgage if there is no insurance to pay off the original one

[22:15:21] CC:
*mumbles* and TAXED

[22:15:42] MsPam:
<Enters the Dungeon.> <just sitting here>

[22:15:54] SassySioux:
yes, there is always the TAX - and that varies from state to state

[22:16:39] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:16:48] CC:
ahhh good point there ... if there was mortague insurance that paid off the house at the time of ones death and the other partner inherited it then it would be paid off .. supposing of course that each partner had ins that was equal to the amount of the remaining mortagues

[22:17:06] CC:
thought we lost you there for a minute MsPam

[22:17:32] lilypet:
<just sitting here>

[22:17:40] gentle:
estate planning.. *S*....

[22:18:03] SassySioux:
estate planning isn't just for traditional couples

[22:18:34] SassySioux:
in fact, it is vital to the nontraditional couple

[22:18:38] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:18:40] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:18:41] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:18:44] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:18:45] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:18:57] CC:
Sassy .. moving onto yet another common question ... what about rights with regard to search of ones home should there be that "knock on the door"? How would you greet the police? Would you allow them into your home and IF they entered what would they be able to search without your permission?

[22:18:57] Quantum:
sorry

[22:19:17] SassySioux:
there are many ways to protect the relationship, and wills and poa's are just the beginning

[22:19:46] CC:
*g* not a problem Quantum .. I promise you it isnt the first time that has happened

[22:19:47] SassySioux:
CC - there is a move towaards non-consentual searches without a warrant

[22:20:27] SassySioux:
if the police knock at your door due to a complaint, they have the right to a "plain site" search

[22:20:29] Quantum:
my girl is very nervous about will planning.. even though I do know it is for her best interest.. can a will be done up.. and then still leagally enforcable without the other partners knowlegde?

[22:20:32] CC:
part of our friendly "home security" initiatives?

[22:20:33] SassySioux:
they need no warrant for that

[22:21:22] Quantum:
bit of a pc moron here lol

[22:21:24] SassySioux:
i would personally let them in, and if they questioned what we were doing, then bring out the contracts to show that we are engaging in consentual play

[22:21:26] CC:
which would mean to me .. be sure all interior doors are CLOSED before you open the door to police

[22:22:09] SassySioux:
what is done in privacy between consenting adults in their own home is technically beyond the reach of the law in most states

[22:22:31] SassySioux:
yes, close that door to the dungeon so it is not in plain sight

[22:22:42] CC:
or you could both slip into robes(whatever) preferably with long sleeves etc if bruises were needing to be covered ...and step outside and appologize for making too much noise and maybe wink that you were a lil too feisty?

[22:23:01] leatherdanzer:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[22:23:10] SassySioux:
Quantum, you can draw up a will of your own without her knowledge, but you cannot draw one up for her

[22:23:45] CC:
try NOT to be nervous or display aggressive behavior .. which may be hard to do for the dominant partner if they were in full play mode

[22:24:05] SassySioux:
CC, in most cases that would work, but there is always the chance that the cop that comes to your door will be gung ho and insist on coming in

[22:24:12] Quantum:
Never would try to do that for her.. but do want her protected in the even that I shouls pass

[22:24:19] CC:
nods to Sassy .. since of coure the will has to be signed/dated/witnessed by the person that is making that will

[22:24:46] SassySioux:
if that is the case, then i would ask to see the warrant, and if none is available, then you have the right to privacy

[22:24:58] MsPam:
Wasn't there an incident not too long ago in Florida whereas a couple were "playing" in their own apartment and the blinds were not totally closed, something about one of the neighbors filming it and then turning them in .. or something to that effect?

[22:25:11] CC:
I think I'd at least give that option first try ...

[22:25:14] SassySioux:
then, while they are getting that warrant, do some fast cleanup and get rid of certain items

[22:26:16] SassySioux:
MsPam, if the blinds are open, then you cannot expect the same level of privacy and that could open you up to some problems

[22:26:54] hislildeleon:
well i cant really ad anything to this conversation, so i will go until the next time thanks for letting me pop in.

[22:27:04] CC:
I do remember something about it but not all the details ... I DO know that here in Georgia even as a licensed detective I cannot film though windows or blinds for that invades ones expectation of privacy ... and *lol* if they were filiming I would think they reallllllllly wanted to watch!

[22:27:07] MsPam:
I think they were both nurses (male and female) and lost their jobs over it..

[22:27:26] Quantum:
LOL

[22:27:37] CC:
hislideleon .. not everyone can always add to a conversation but might pick up some information that they can use later

[22:27:45] SassySioux:
that could open up a whole new case of discrimination

[22:28:12] Quantum:
not laughin over them losing the jobs of course.. but CC coment

[22:28:13] CC:
please do check out the brc's articles and discussion board ... and glad to have you here

[22:28:34] CC:
surprised they didnt put it up on the net and charge per view

[22:29:01] MsPam:
Does the place of work have to have a stipulation in their "rules" about unorthodox (or aberrant) behavior being a reason for dismissal? If that is not stipulated, can they legally fire you?

[22:29:19] SassySioux:
CC - good point - you can always use invasion of privacy as a defense should the police decide to take things a step further

[22:30:32] SassySioux:
MsPam, most states will allow a person to be fired without cause, and the stipulations that are written down are so vague as to be open to almost any interpretation

[22:31:16] SassySioux:
still, you can push for a discrimation suit based on their lack of viable reason for firing you

[22:31:29] MsPam:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[22:31:59] Quantum:
is it worth while doing.. or are you just spinning your wheels?

[22:32:02] CC:
shoot Ms Pam .. I worked for a place that dictated I must wear underwear and deoderant

[22:32:02] SassySioux:
if it is simply because of what you do in private or your sexual orientation (and our lifestyle can be classed as such0, then their firing you for it would violate your civil rights

[22:32:35] lilypet:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[22:32:42] gentle:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[22:32:56] SassySioux:
however, if they have an employment contract in which these things are spelled out, then you may not have any recourse unless you can prove the contract is illegal

[22:33:18] SassySioux:
but if you signed it, then you don't have much to go on

[22:33:36] MsPam:
That is why discretion is still foremost needed.. It is sad that we cannot be open enough to really enjoy the lifestyle without retribution or discrimination..

[22:33:55] CC:
I do highly recommend this site and support for it ... http://www.ncsfreedom.org/ it is the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom

[22:33:59] Quantum:
ouch.. seems a tad harsh.. do some employiers actually speel it out that finnaly?

[22:34:01] mitch:
<Enters the Dungeon>

[22:34:17] mitch:
good evening

[22:34:24] CC:
MsPam .. well in many ways we can be "open" about it without pushing it in someones face

[22:34:26] gentle:
<Enters the Dungeon.> /msg gentle

[22:34:30] SassySioux:
yes, Quantum, some do

[22:34:32] CC:
good to see you mitch

[22:34:48] Quantum:
hello mitch

[22:34:57] MsPam:
Oh I know, CC.. I am not closeted.. just discreet..

[22:35:13] CC:
why yes they do Quantum .. *lol* however I never had any of them actually check (fortuantely)

[22:35:18] SassySioux:
MsPam, in most cases, if it is done in the privacy of your bedroom, then it is your protected right

[22:35:21] MsPam:
as you know CC, SC is a very slow to get with it state

[22:35:29] SassySioux:
the problem exists once you take it out into public

[22:35:34] MsPam:
we still have some very enforced archaic laws

[22:35:54] CC:
*grins* but I LOVE shopping in Greenville!

[22:35:59] SassySioux:
so does ohio

[22:36:01] Quantum:
lol

[22:36:06] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:09] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:10] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:11] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:12] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:14] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:17] CC:
yeah .. like you can pierce but not tattoo

[22:36:22] mitch:
good evening

[22:36:25] Quantum:
gezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[22:36:33] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:34] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:37] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:37] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:39] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:39] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:42] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:36:42] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:37:06] Quantum:
i did mention I was a pc moron right?

[22:37:25] Quantum:
Sorry about that everyone

[22:37:27] CC:
Canada has a couple of interesting ones too .... like with regard to bootblacks

[22:37:29] mitch:
good evening Ma'am

[22:37:42] SassySioux:
CC, isn't that law basically for the parlors as well as minors?

[22:37:46] MsPam:
it is either NC or SC that has the old law that you can take your wife on Sunday afternoon and beat her on the courthouse steps... but same state (or both) says it is illegal for any form or sex other than missionary position..

[22:37:53] CC:
was thinking more like quicks draw mcgraw there **S**

[22:38:00] Quantum:
bootblacks?

[22:38:05] SassySioux:
as an adult, if you want to do it to yourself, you should have that right, but you cannot ask someone else to do it for you

[22:38:31] MsPam:
good evening mitch

[22:38:36] SassySioux:
MsPam, that law exists in kentucky

[22:38:47] CC:
oh if you wanna get going on good laws ... washington dc says it is illegal for a married man to go to bed with a virgin ... so apparently he has to get married and consumate it elsewhere!

[22:39:19] SassySioux:
lol - that one is open to many different interpretations, CC

[22:39:23] hislildeleon:
i guess i have to wonder, how would or could anyone enforce such laws about what kind of sex we have

[22:39:40] Quantum:
Some one should have told Clinton I guess lol

[22:39:52] hislildeleon:
they would have to go door to door or window to window

[22:40:05] hislildeleon:
no kidding

[22:40:16] SassySioux:
hislildeleon, once you take it outside the privacy of the "marriage bed" it becomes open to legal scrutiny

[22:40:32] CC:
Quantum I think that lilypet fell asleep at the keyboard .. she tells me that bootblacking is illegal in Canada and it is actually in the constitution and has to do with opposition to slavery

[22:40:40] MsPam:
well, I think that a relationship between gays/lesbian might raise some questions to some

[22:41:05] Quantum:
Sorry to take away from the topic SassySioux.. please continue

[22:41:20] SassySioux:
that depends on how the state laws define those relationships

[22:41:33] CC:
I keep thinking there was one more area of things to cover and for the life of me I cant recall what it was!

[22:41:40] Quantum:
I am not fimliar with the term

[22:41:43] leatherdanzer:
<Enters the Dungeon.> even then, what about the patriate act conserning government employees

[22:41:50] SassySioux:
thus GW wanting to amend the constitution to define marriage

[22:42:08] leatherdanzer:
Shining shoes is illigal in Canada........(he,he)..

[22:42:36] SassySioux:
shiny shoes are illegal for women in Ohio

[22:42:41] Quantum:
oh oh.. I spent 5 years in the army.. take me away

[22:42:55] Quantum:
honestly?

[22:43:02] CC:
hislildeleon .... yes and no ... if you are doing things in a "public place/dungeon" one is more "exposed" to the possiblity of legal questions

[22:43:06] gentle:
Sassy... please excuse me... tomorrow comes early... your talk was great... thanks.

[22:43:19] gentle:
night CC and all.. *S*

[22:43:21] gentle:
<Has left the Dungeon>

[22:43:25] SassySioux:
thank you gentle - email me anytime if you have questions

[22:43:47] CC:
Quantum ..wouldnt you have LOVED to use that as an excuse to NOT shine boots? (actually I think you can do your own ..just not someone elses)

[22:44:07] SassySioux:
yes, quantum, honestly - patent leather shoes are illegal for women in Ohio

[22:44:17] Quantum:
lol no doubt!

[22:44:45] Quantum:
the reasoning for that is?

[22:45:03] hislildeleon:
okay i have to laugh, why are patton leather shoes illegal in ohio

[22:45:10] leatherdanzer:
class is not in session in ohio

[22:45:20] Quantum:
sorry.. I know what they ment but is it ever enforced?

[22:45:26] hislildeleon:
you can up the dress

[22:45:32] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:45:35] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:45:37] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:45:38] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:45:39] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:45:40] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:45:47] SassySioux:
no one knows for sure, but it is suspected that men could see a woman's undergarments in their reflection and therefore lust in his heart

[22:46:00] Quantum:
sorry.. used to mirc

[22:46:32] CC:
For those of you that have comments or questions w/regard to legal issues .. please use this link http://www.thebrc.net/discus/main.htm to head to the BRC Discussion Board and post any questions under Community Issues

[22:46:35] SassySioux:
as far as i know, the law is no longer enforced, but it is still on the books

[22:46:52] CC:
*snickers* or that theyb werent wearing any

[22:47:18] SassySioux:
yes, there is that point

[22:47:27] SassySioux:
i never found them that good as mirrors

[22:47:31] Quantum:
we have laws like that.. you can be forced to leave town here.. but.. they have to give you a saddle.. and a horse

[22:47:53] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:47:54] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:47:58] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:48:00] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:48:01] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:48:02] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:48:19] SassySioux:
saddle isn 't much good without the horse

[22:48:41] Quantum:
and no moving cattle in the streets after 8:00 pm

[22:48:46] MsPam:
you mean all I would have to do is come up there and wear some shiny shoes and I could get a free horse and saddle?? wow... where in Canada is this? hehehe

[22:48:56] CC:
in summation .... legal things you should consider .... 1) contracts even for casual play (more detailed for long term relationships) 2) What information you should have when meeting someone for the first time 3) wills 4) power of attorney for long term health issues

[22:49:10] Quantum:
I try to get that all done by 6:00 pm lol

[22:49:23] CC:
5) property titles and insurance

[22:49:40] CC:
Sassy ... what am I missing here?

[22:50:07] leatherdanzer:
6... No sdhiny shoes in Ohio

[22:50:09] CC:
6) what to do when police come knocking ...

[22:50:09] SassySioux:
CC, one point here is that you can name anyone you want as beneficiary on your insurance policies

[22:50:28] Quantum:
Well.. I thank both of you greatly.. has been very informative

[22:50:40] SassySioux:
this is another way of making sure your nontraditional partner is taken care of after you are gone

[22:50:47] MsPam:
what about sex in sessions

[22:50:58] Quantum:
exactly

[22:51:00] SassySioux:
Quantum, i am glad you joined us - your questions were great

[22:51:28] MsPam:
or sexual contact... I know that flogging is illegal here in SC

[22:51:31] SassySioux:
MsPam, what exactly do you mean by sex in sessions?

[22:51:35] MsPam:
relates back to the slavery days

[22:52:02] MsPam:
sexual contact or masturbation of one or oral contact

[22:52:04] Quantum:
Thank you SassySioux

[22:52:32] mitch:
<Has left the Dungeon (autologout).>

[22:52:32] SassySioux:
once again, if done between consenting partners in the privacy of the home, it should be above the law, but best to check with an attorney in your state

[22:53:20] SassySioux:
most of the sex laws were written to play on the conscience of people, and never intended to be inforced

[22:53:43] SassySioux:
however, if done in public, there was legal recourse available

[22:54:26] Quantum:
yes not intended to be enforced.. but they have in the past to make a point

[22:54:50] MsPam:
that would fall under the rulings of public indecency or luidness (sp?)

[22:54:54] SassySioux:
very true - they served as a moral guideline

[22:55:04] hislildeleon:
so where can you find out about the laws in a particular state

[22:55:40] Quantum:
hmmm... moral guide line

[22:55:48] SassySioux:
Anderson's has most states online and can be found with a simple Google search

[22:56:09] MsPam:
what is andersons?

[22:56:32] hislildeleon:
thank you i will look

[22:56:36] SassySioux:
they are a legal publishing company

[22:56:42] SassySioux:
what state are you in?

[22:56:56] Quantum:
Well SissySioux.. I thank you very much.. for listening

[22:57:00] hislildeleon:
indiana

[22:57:09] hislildeleon:
mid biblebelt

[22:57:16] SassySioux:
my pleasure Quantum - feel free to email me if i can help in any way

[22:57:33] hislildeleon:
this has been interesting

[22:57:39] MsPam:
that is a big belt.. this is the buckle though

[22:57:51] SassySioux:
type into the search bar "Indiana Revised Code" and it will bring up the entire Indiana state laws

[22:57:55] CC:
http://thrall.org/law/ I dont know how good this site is .. but I thought you might all find it at least worth looking on

[22:57:58] hislildeleon:
hahha

[22:57:59] Quantum:
I am new to this form.. could I have your email addy please

[22:58:10] leatherdanzer:
all very interesting

[22:58:25] MsPam:
can you do the same for South Carolina and North Carolina?

[22:58:27] SassySioux:
i'm in Ohio, but the company we work for is in Indiana, so i have to research laws for both states

[22:58:27] CC:
we welcome your input here and on the discussion board

[22:58:37] SassySioux:
Sassy_Sioux2001@yahoo.com

[22:58:51] Quantum:
can a person subscribe to the form?

[22:58:53] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:58:54] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:58:56] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:58:57] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:59:01] Quantum:
<just sitting here>

[22:59:12] SassySioux:
which form Quantum?

[22:59:43] Quantum:
day was way to long.. again I apoligize

[22:59:46] CC:
the discussion board? yes . .. it is on site only ..

[23:00:05] Quantum:
to this one.. if there is going to be talks

[23:00:08] CC:
just send and email to editor@thebrc.net and include the name you wish to register

[23:00:35] Quantum:
thanks

[23:01:11] CC:
BRC CHAT is held every tuesday evening 9-11 or there about ... weeks 1-4 ...NO chat if there is a 5th Tuesday

[23:01:24] SassySioux:
Quantum, there is a dungeon chat every tuesday night at this same time

[23:01:32] SassySioux:
you are welcome to join in any of them

[23:01:38] Quantum:
would you mind if I msg you in here SassySioux?

[23:02:00] SassySioux:
i don't mind at all

[23:02:05] CC:
you can read some of the past chats if you wish .. you passed them on the way in :) the entire site now has a search engine ... so put in a topic and check it out

[23:02:16] MsPam:
<just sitting here>

[23:02:53] Quantum:
hmmm.. being a pc moron.. how do I do that again?

[23:02:59] CC:
the discussion board has plenty of advice from a couple of RN's that have graciously answered any number of questions

[23:03:26] CC:
and god knows everytime we talk about safe sex I learn something else ...

[23:03:27] SassySioux:
Quantum, you can also reach me on yahoo messenger and MSN messenger

[23:03:47] CC:
I have to bid you all g'night ... with sincere thanks for your participation

[23:04:19] CC:
Robyn hosts weeks 1/3 and I host weeks 2/4 .... that alarm at 5 am well ... I need to scoot

[23:04:33] CC:
n'night all ... and MsPam .. c'mon down to hotlanta

[23:04:37] Quantum:
thank you fro your effort in getting this all together CC.. a very well done job

[23:04:38] SassySioux:
thanks for having me here, CC - i hope i have helped people realize they do have choices and recourse

[23:04:39] MsPam:
good night CC and thank you

[23:04:48] MsPam:
might take you up on that someday

[23:05:02] hislildeleon:
good night and thanks for the invite

[23:05:09] MsPam:
you been to 1763

[23:05:15] SassySioux:
good night to all of you, and thank you for being here

[23:05:30] MsPam:
thank you Sassy .. very informative

[23:05:32] Quantum:
hmmm.. so how do I find you on msn?

[23:05:39] SassySioux:
if anyone has any other questions, feel free to email me

[23:05:57] SassySioux:
once again that is Sassy_Sioux2001@yahoo.com

[23:07:33] MsPam:
good night A/all

[23:07:35] MsPam:
be well

[23:07:45] MsPam:
<Has left the Dungeon>

[23:08:45] SassySioux:
does anyone else have any questions?

[23:10:46] SassySioux:
if not, then i will bid you all a good night

[23:10:59] SassySioux:
thank you again for coming here tonight

[23:11:09] SassySioux:
hope to see you again next week

[23:11:22] SassySioux:
take care and have a wonderful week

[23:11:32] SassySioux:
<Has left the Dungeon>

[23:12:21] Quantum:
well I have to thank everyone for the company

[23:12:46] Quantum:
hope you all have a wonderful night